• Destination Search Engine Marketing, Part II: What Would Sudden Exposure Get You
• Destination Search Engine Marketing, Part I: Do you Deserve Top Search Rankings?
• The SEO Fool's Errand for the SEO Fool
• Why Destination Search Engine Marketing Is So Essential

Great post Stoney. I especially like the subtly with which you say "good websites".

If your website is a usability nightmare, good exposure probably won't mean squat.

Posted by: Chris G. on August 11, 2008

Stoney - loved the post! Timely for me, as you will see if you follow the URL associated with my name above - I mention how I was just about to write "your" post (beat me by about 35 minutes - well a couple of hours in the end).

@Chris G. - couldn't agree more. Could we dare hope that crappy sites built for SEO will fade away?

Posted by: Andy Komack on August 11, 2008

It's not just the folks who are logged in and seeing "personalized results" who will potentially see different rankings. I don't track rankings much myself, but I understand there's also the potential for apparent different rankings arising from queries being directed to different data centers.

Posted by: Diane Aull on August 11, 2008

good point Dianne. I just didn't want to run through the laundry list of all the things that makes rankings different. But duly noted.

Thanks Chris, I needed to make the point, but didn't want to jump on a soap box again. :)

Andy, good post yourself!

Posted by: Stoney deGeyter on August 11, 2008

Ranking for me is a method of assessing how relevant my sites are. Yes it varies with what servers the search is made on, but all the rankings show the same general trend. i.e if your site is ranking in position 1 on one pc and position 4 on another, they are both telling me that my site is doing okay from the search engine point of view

Is this not an important piece of feedback to have on my SEO efforts?

Posted by: Ami on August 11, 2008

Brief laundry list of what goes into rankings:

http://www.jaankanellis.com/google-rankings-change-from-day-to-day-hour-to-hour-why/

Posted by: Jaan kanellis on August 11, 2008

After a client saw their traffic double they were still upset that their ranking had dropped. Had sales decreased? No... in fact they couldn't keep up with the demand. Not sure why exactly the traffic/conversions increased so dramatically with a drop from one to 3. Could be that the other sites were so poor that by the time they hit the 3rd it was simple enough and direct. We try not to make the visitor think.

@Ami I've done the same search 4 or 5 times to have 4 or 5 different results returned. This on the same machine and same browser. Seems that our good friend Google is mixing up their results, on the fly?

Posted by: Robert on August 12, 2008

Hi

That makes sense we thought it might be WebCEO blocking us when we start not to be able to search without a gotcha on monday.

What do you think the answer is? less checking or more tracking on the search engines or a return to the API key we could use?

Posted by: Tristan Bailey on August 12, 2008

Apart from WebPosition, which are the "several" checkers that are being blocked?

[Recently Google started blocking several of the big-name rank checking software used by many in the SEO industry]

Posted by: Rod Fielding on August 12, 2008

I didn't realize Google was doing that. I've been trying discourage clients from being position-freaks, but it's hard to supress someone's joy when they see themselves in position 1 for some perceived 'very important keyword'.

Rather than run reports, I manually track their top 20 keywords every few months because it gives us all a 'keyword kick' and doesn't really take long - but I prefer to look at their web analytics and focus on which keywords actually converted and why.

I think my clients get a lot more out of me analysing their stats than checking their positions.

In the end, you're right, rankings are but one wee aspect of a great Web site- but there's a certain satisfaction that comes with seeing top positions in a page of revelant SERPS!

Posted by: Carolyn Price on August 12, 2008

Thanks Jaan,

@ Robert, see now that's where it just doesn't make any sense at all. And overall, that's the frustration in trying to educate clients into understanding the big picture. But these types often refuse to be educated.

@tristan, sorry, I don't have an answer for you. You'll have to take this up with your ranking check software programmers of choice.

@ Rod, I don't know all of them, but I've heard mentions of WPG and Web CEO.

@ carolyn "I think my clients get a lot more out of me analysing their stats than checking their positions." And that should be the truth of the matter. That's what's most important, anyway.

Posted by: Stoney deGeyter on August 12, 2008

@ Stoney: No matter how hard you try with some clients, they've heard somewhere from someone... and that is that!

Posted by: Robert on August 12, 2008

Very good Stoney! Since I have weighed in elsewhere, thought I might here as well.

I thought your playing the other side was very good. You wrote this:

"We know that rankings in these base results deliver traffic for certain key phrases. I've had clients tell me they can immediately tell when they lose a few spots in the search rankings. The orders slow, the phone calls drop off, and their traffic numbers decline. Now, who cares about traffic numbers, but you can't argue with a client that tells you that they are losing sales.

Some will look at this as an argument against ranking reports. Afterall, it's the sales that matter, not the rankings. I fully concur! But when you're investigating the reason why there was a drop in sales, one would be remiss not to look to see if there is a change in position for certain keywords. Of course, you can only know if something has changed if you knew what it was beforehand."

Unless we actually see for ourselves, we really don't know if that client is saying sales have dropped only because they saw a rank on a phrase drop recently, or because their sales really did in fact drop. Sometimes client's get excited either way... a drop or a rise in positions. The thing is, you can see what is happening with an overall approach by viewing the stats and/or logs for that client. We have to learn how to educate the client using a looking down at things from high above approach instead of focusing on specific phrases the client thinks means success for them. If your stats are telling you that overall the client is getting referrals from a larger number of quality phrases, then you know things are good. It makes no difference what the exact page the phrase shows up in Google or what the rank number is. It really does not. Because of all the things that go into a rank that one may see, there is no way to know what a rank is anyway. It should be the entire picture of things.

I think the biggest culprit to this rank mentality is our industry as a whole. SEO has been traditionally viewed as "gaining good positions". It's our job as an industry to teach others exactly what SEO is right now. We know it's not about a rank, but how do you tell your client that fact? That's where many out there miss the boat in a big way.

Good stuff Stoney.

Posted by: Doug Heil on August 12, 2008

"Recently Google started blocking several of the big-name rank checking software used by many in the SEO industry. This, of course, sparked the debate on whether SEO firms should be bothering with providing ranking reports to their clients. I have to say, I'm conflicted on that issue."

This hasn't changed since day one.. Google, webcrawler, lycos, excite, yahoo! (infoseek), etc,

have always asked people not to do these.

http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=66357

ranking reports should be done based on user frequency, bounce rate and an actual referring visit.

Posted by: paisley on August 12, 2008

@ paisley, there is a difference between asking people not to use them and actually blocking them. The former has always been true. The latter now is.

@ doug, you're absolutely right about not taking the client's word for it. SEOs need to see for ourselves it it pans out to be true. But if it is, then that goes right back to how important rankings are for them. I've got one client that complained they dropped from #3 to #6 for two keyword phrases. From all our efforts, business had grown 80% in two years, but those two phrases were the only thing that mattered. Frustrating. A few crappy links ;-) pushed them into the #1 spot and, of course they are so happy. They can't sell anymore batteries, mind you, as their stock gets depleted each year, regardless of the position, but none of that matters to them!

Posted by: Stoney deGeyter on August 12, 2008

If anyone is having problems with WebCEO, please let us know here in the comments. I'm running a competitive search engine ranking report on WebCEO while writing this comment and it seems to be working fine. If anyone has had problems with WebCEO in the last few days, please let us know what the problems were and whether they seemed temporary or not. In the meantime, whether or not there's any value to these reports, clients do seem to like them because they are easy to understand and give them a way to compare to the competition for the same keyphrases.

Posted by: Herb Firestone on August 12, 2008

Stoney,
I can't be the only one that actually follows google's rules.

Posted by: paisley on August 12, 2008

I don't suppose you are, but then it's still irrelevant. Google was never blocking them before.

Posted by: Stoney deGeyter on August 12, 2008

I really think that what Google has done is effectively make the job of the SEO much more difficult. Not from the actual SEO side of it, but from a customer relationship management side of it.

Posted by: Adaid Internet Marketing on August 13, 2008

Web CEO was not 'blocked'. Google just updated how they were 'constructing' their results format. This meant that the software could not work out the results on the pages it downloaded to the local cache. A day later there was an updated from WebCEO (like the ones it releases around every other day inside the software) and Google was once again fine. Has been since. No problemo. :)

I can't speak for any other items of software, but AFAIK they all get the serps while showing themselves as a "browser"... as such I am unsure how Google could even detect said software unless it doesn't randomise the request times enough?

Either way, a fantastic post you have here, well written, nice balance, and I agree with it. :) Well done!

David

Posted by: David on August 13, 2008

@ Adaid Internet Marketing
Really? I think it's easier since their recent tools additions, the expansion of webmaster tools, analytics (v2) Google alerts etc etc etc. If by 'more difficult' you mean trying to give the users searching better results then I can't say I agree. We just have to be a little more dynamic and explore more data to get averages. A bit more work on behalf of our clients... etc.

Not such a bad thing.

Posted by: David on August 13, 2008

Ahh, thank g-d WPG is back online... Gosh...

I agree, that web rankings isn't everything. But if it's not, you have to track historical rankings, along with integrated analytics traffic reports giving an indication of how the website is doing... Ohh, and don't forget, conversion rates by keyword, and change due to ranking.

There's so much that has yet to be done in analytics, that I don't think I could sell a client on "rankings don't count"...

Posted by: David - LA Marketing Firm on August 13, 2008

Then why can many of us "sell a client" on rankings don't mean much? If many of us can, many of you should. After all; one reason should be it IS against the Google TOS, right?

What "rankings" would you be referring to anyway? The rank your client sees while logged in to Google. The rank your client sees while not logged in? The rank your client sees with geography in the mix? The rank your client sees with universal search thrown in? The rank your client sees when G shows him a different database when he refreshes the results? The rank your client sees when one or all of the items above are put into the serps? Or is a rank what you see on your end with all the same things involved?

Tell me exactly what rank you and your client are talking about. Then please tell me exactly what it is you cannot do using your stats and/or log files given all the nuances of all the above?

Posted by: Doug Heil on August 13, 2008

@ David, you bring up a good point. This was somethign I was wondering but never explored... How Google was able to block these specific programs. In order to do so there would have to be some kind of footprint that allows Google to identify these programs. It bothered me that they would be so easy to fall prey to that.

More likely, Google will ban the IP addresses of anyone using these tools, provided they use it enough and don't use roaming IPs!

Posted by: Stoney deGeyter on August 13, 2008

To my mind, rankings are NEVER irrelevant. SEO is *often* a case of advertising a site's existence fro relevant phrases, and you have to have an indication as to how well that advert is performing/likelihood (when combined with demand) of being seen.

As SEO companies we can't also blindly optimise sites without knowing if our work is effective. I had a client conversation on precisely the matter of sales/conversions being MOST important, but rankings and then traffic are a means to that end. Take away the means and its hardder to reach the final objective.

Posted by: Adam Pritchard on August 14, 2008